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	<title>Comments on: I can see clearly now: The ENDA Controversy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/</link>
	<description>LGBT news/opinion from Matt Comer, journalist, activist</description>
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		<title>By: Ian Palmquist</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54117</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Palmquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54117</guid>
		<description>Hey Matt,

I think you&#039;re right that the pro-inclusion folks haven&#039;t done as well at articulating the strategic reasoning for demanding inclusion, but that case is being made by the United EDNA coalition to Congress. 

Unfortuantely, Barney Frank (who I respect and appreciate for his past leadership) has framed this debated as being between &quot;emotional purists&quot; and &quot;political realists.&quot; 

As an advocate working in the South, I think I (and my colleagues in other states) have definitely learned to be realistic. In fact, that&#039;s exactly why nearly all state equality groups are insisting on an inclusive ENDA. We&#039;ve learned from the political realities in our states that it&#039;s the right thing to do both morally and strategically.

Thanks for sparking this discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Matt,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right that the pro-inclusion folks haven&#8217;t done as well at articulating the strategic reasoning for demanding inclusion, but that case is being made by the United EDNA coalition to Congress. </p>
<p>Unfortuantely, Barney Frank (who I respect and appreciate for his past leadership) has framed this debated as being between &#8220;emotional purists&#8221; and &#8220;political realists.&#8221; </p>
<p>As an advocate working in the South, I think I (and my colleagues in other states) have definitely learned to be realistic. In fact, that&#8217;s exactly why nearly all state equality groups are insisting on an inclusive ENDA. We&#8217;ve learned from the political realities in our states that it&#8217;s the right thing to do both morally and strategically.</p>
<p>Thanks for sparking this discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Comer</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54104</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Comer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54104</guid>
		<description>And a clarification to the above...

This is just observations from a media standpoint and from a public standpoint. I&#039;m not saying strategy debates aren&#039;t happening, I&#039;m just saying that perhaps they aren&#039;t being heard among all the bickering.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And a clarification to the above&#8230;</p>
<p>This is just observations from a media standpoint and from a public standpoint. I&#8217;m not saying strategy debates aren&#8217;t happening, I&#8217;m just saying that perhaps they aren&#8217;t being heard among all the bickering.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Comer</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54103</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Comer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:51:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54103</guid>
		<description>Thanks Ian. You certainly aren&#039;t the first person to point out the strategy side of things. As I said in the post, I certainly am aware that there are many sides to the debate. I had hoped I&#039;d made that clear. 

My observations come from what I&#039;m primarily hearing from the two main sides of the debate. Unfortunately, a lot of what is being pushed by one side is the morality of the situation. Likewise, a lot of what is coming from the other main side of the debate is pragmatism. 

Those aren&#039;t the only opinions, but they certainly are among the loudest.

I apologize if I ignored a portion of the debate that is larger than it seems. 

I meant no harm.

Perhaps we should all focus more on strategy debates now. Perhaps that has been lacking a bit (along with reconciliation)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ian. You certainly aren&#8217;t the first person to point out the strategy side of things. As I said in the post, I certainly am aware that there are many sides to the debate. I had hoped I&#8217;d made that clear. </p>
<p>My observations come from what I&#8217;m primarily hearing from the two main sides of the debate. Unfortunately, a lot of what is being pushed by one side is the morality of the situation. Likewise, a lot of what is coming from the other main side of the debate is pragmatism. </p>
<p>Those aren&#8217;t the only opinions, but they certainly are among the loudest.</p>
<p>I apologize if I ignored a portion of the debate that is larger than it seems. </p>
<p>I meant no harm.</p>
<p>Perhaps we should all focus more on strategy debates now. Perhaps that has been lacking a bit (along with reconciliation)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Palmquist</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54094</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Palmquist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54094</guid>
		<description>Matt, I have to say I&#039;m disappointed that you&#039;re framing this as a debate between purists and pragmatists. Yes, I do believe it&#039;s morally wrong to leave part of our community out of anti-discrimination legislation. (Not to mention that it&#039;s wrong and unprecedented for congressional leadership to move forward with a civil rights bill that not a single major organization in the affected group supports.)  

But my main reason for opposing an exclusive bill is strategic, not purist:

History shows us clearly that, if we actually want protections for trans-folk, we either get it at the same time or wait ten or twenty years. Wisconsin&#039;s been waiting for 25 years! It&#039;s worth taking a little bit of time to get the handful of additional votes that are needed.

By running this substitute bill, congressional leadership is essentially telling nervous Democrats that it&#039;s okay not to support the inclusive version. Their actions are actually sapping votes away from the inclusive bill, which according to several members of Congress DID have the votes before all this blew up.

The political reality is the alternate, exclusive bill is moving us back, not forward.

Finally, I have to point out that the &quot;deal&quot; Pelosi offered is actually just the same thing we&#039;ve been dealing with for two weeks: moving forward with an exclusive bill, but promising to consider an inclusive bill when we can &quot;prove&quot; we have the votes. I&#039;m glad they aren&#039;t ruling out hearing the good version of the bill, but it&#039;s nothing new.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt, I have to say I&#8217;m disappointed that you&#8217;re framing this as a debate between purists and pragmatists. Yes, I do believe it&#8217;s morally wrong to leave part of our community out of anti-discrimination legislation. (Not to mention that it&#8217;s wrong and unprecedented for congressional leadership to move forward with a civil rights bill that not a single major organization in the affected group supports.)  </p>
<p>But my main reason for opposing an exclusive bill is strategic, not purist:</p>
<p>History shows us clearly that, if we actually want protections for trans-folk, we either get it at the same time or wait ten or twenty years. Wisconsin&#8217;s been waiting for 25 years! It&#8217;s worth taking a little bit of time to get the handful of additional votes that are needed.</p>
<p>By running this substitute bill, congressional leadership is essentially telling nervous Democrats that it&#8217;s okay not to support the inclusive version. Their actions are actually sapping votes away from the inclusive bill, which according to several members of Congress DID have the votes before all this blew up.</p>
<p>The political reality is the alternate, exclusive bill is moving us back, not forward.</p>
<p>Finally, I have to point out that the &#8220;deal&#8221; Pelosi offered is actually just the same thing we&#8217;ve been dealing with for two weeks: moving forward with an exclusive bill, but promising to consider an inclusive bill when we can &#8220;prove&#8221; we have the votes. I&#8217;m glad they aren&#8217;t ruling out hearing the good version of the bill, but it&#8217;s nothing new.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54009</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54009</guid>
		<description>You don&#039;t have to leave Casey... I like the debate. It is healthy (as long as it remains civil). I just thought it was funny my blog was all of a sudden legal theory central. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You don&#8217;t have to leave Casey&#8230; I like the debate. It is healthy (as long as it remains civil). I just thought it was funny my blog was all of a sudden legal theory central. <img src='http://www.interstateq.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-54004</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-54004</guid>
		<description>hehe, sorry Matt.  I&#039;ve basically made my point, so I&#039;ll stop clogging your comment section, anyway.  And ironic as it may sound to say at this point, great statement about posturing and insults - there&#039;s been altogether too much of that in the ENDA debate, and hard as it is to resist it, voices like yours that remind us of that are very much welcome.  Take care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hehe, sorry Matt.  I&#8217;ve basically made my point, so I&#8217;ll stop clogging your comment section, anyway.  And ironic as it may sound to say at this point, great statement about posturing and insults &#8211; there&#8217;s been altogether too much of that in the ENDA debate, and hard as it is to resist it, voices like yours that remind us of that are very much welcome.  Take care.</p>
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		<title>By: Casey</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-53999</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-53999</guid>
		<description>Yep, an attorney who doesn&#039;t practice... and unless this is your area of expertise, you, like every other lawyer who hasn&#039;t read the case law, are capable of doing nothing more in response to a question than saying &quot;hmm, it depends.  Let me do some research and get back to you on that&quot;  - and then passing it over to a law clerk like me to find out the law for you.  So shall we stop with the pissing contest and just look at the facts at hand?

Of course, never being wronged is different from being vindicated - but do you really think that simply passing ENDA, of whatever stripe, will be enough to stop such things from happening?  Laws aren&#039;t magical behavior modifiers - they just let there be remedies to wrongs.  In the article you linked to, the bouncer clearly had no interest in any laws that might exist - hence his statement that her ID didn&#039;t matter.  That wrong was gonna happen no matter what.  What we&#039;re discussing is whether she&#039;s likely to win without T-inclusive ENDA... and I&#039;m pretty sure she is, which means Lambda, by presenting this as an open and shut case, is in error.  (Not to mention the blatant misinterpretation of the case law authority they rested on in their open letter to Rep. Frank, which I think was borderline unethical).  Fact is, gays have been lobbying for employment protections for decades - if this gender identity question was that critical, it would have been included in the bill much sooner than just this year.  It wasn&#039;t.  Why is that, Esquire?

I&#039;m not opposing Lambda because I don&#039;t want a t-inclusive bill voted on - I do.  I&#039;m opposing that argument because it is a scare tactic of the same breed as the slippery slope argument used by our opponents who say that marriage equality leads to the downfall of western civilization.  Both arguments depend on the ignorance of the audience, and on the ability to demagogue people into fear.  It&#039;s immoral no matter who does it, and should be confronted.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, an attorney who doesn&#8217;t practice&#8230; and unless this is your area of expertise, you, like every other lawyer who hasn&#8217;t read the case law, are capable of doing nothing more in response to a question than saying &#8220;hmm, it depends.  Let me do some research and get back to you on that&#8221;  &#8211; and then passing it over to a law clerk like me to find out the law for you.  So shall we stop with the pissing contest and just look at the facts at hand?</p>
<p>Of course, never being wronged is different from being vindicated &#8211; but do you really think that simply passing ENDA, of whatever stripe, will be enough to stop such things from happening?  Laws aren&#8217;t magical behavior modifiers &#8211; they just let there be remedies to wrongs.  In the article you linked to, the bouncer clearly had no interest in any laws that might exist &#8211; hence his statement that her ID didn&#8217;t matter.  That wrong was gonna happen no matter what.  What we&#8217;re discussing is whether she&#8217;s likely to win without T-inclusive ENDA&#8230; and I&#8217;m pretty sure she is, which means Lambda, by presenting this as an open and shut case, is in error.  (Not to mention the blatant misinterpretation of the case law authority they rested on in their open letter to Rep. Frank, which I think was borderline unethical).  Fact is, gays have been lobbying for employment protections for decades &#8211; if this gender identity question was that critical, it would have been included in the bill much sooner than just this year.  It wasn&#8217;t.  Why is that, Esquire?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not opposing Lambda because I don&#8217;t want a t-inclusive bill voted on &#8211; I do.  I&#8217;m opposing that argument because it is a scare tactic of the same breed as the slippery slope argument used by our opponents who say that marriage equality leads to the downfall of western civilization.  Both arguments depend on the ignorance of the audience, and on the ability to demagogue people into fear.  It&#8217;s immoral no matter who does it, and should be confronted.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-53998</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-53998</guid>
		<description>So... How did my blog become the feuding ground between Mr. Lawyer and Madame Will Be Lawyer? 

By the way... My new apartment in Charlotte is just off Lawyers Road. How appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So&#8230; How did my blog become the feuding ground between Mr. Lawyer and Madame Will Be Lawyer? </p>
<p>By the way&#8230; My new apartment in Charlotte is just off Lawyers Road. How appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-53991</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-53991</guid>
		<description>More &lt;a href=&quot;http://transworkplace.blogspot.com/2007/10/splenda-volokh-conspiracy-responds-and.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, btw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More <a href="http://transworkplace.blogspot.com/2007/10/splenda-volokh-conspiracy-responds-and.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, btw.</p>
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		<title>By: KipEsquire</title>
		<link>http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/comment-page-1/#comment-53990</link>
		<dc:creator>KipEsquire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.interstateq.com/archives/2412/#comment-53990</guid>
		<description>Oh right, I forgot. I&#039;m an attorney and therefore know nothing about &quot;how the American legal system works.&quot;

As for Carpenter -- who has been &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bilerico.com/2007/10/enda_the_volkh_conspiracy_gets_it_wrong.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;thoroughly refuted&lt;/a&gt; by more than one Title VII expert -- here&#039;s an example of &lt;a href=&quot;http://citizenchris.typepad.com/citizenchris/2007/10/poking-holes-in.html#comment-85438168&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;what I don&#039;t know&lt;/a&gt; about &quot;how the American legal system works&quot; -- &lt;blockquote&gt;Being wronged, suing and being vindicated is NOT the same as never being wronged in the first place.

So to the extent that a clearer protection in a statute serves as a deterrent to wrongful behavior (i.e., keeps a single &quot;Lambda&#039;s skilled lawyer&quot; from having to be involved at all in a lawsuit that would not happen under a different statute), Carpenter&#039;s argument is invalid.&lt;/blockquote&gt;Guess who wrote that, long before this post was published.

And remind me again how you know more about this issue than I do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh right, I forgot. I&#8217;m an attorney and therefore know nothing about &#8220;how the American legal system works.&#8221;</p>
<p>As for Carpenter &#8212; who has been <a href="http://www.bilerico.com/2007/10/enda_the_volkh_conspiracy_gets_it_wrong.php" rel="nofollow">thoroughly refuted</a> by more than one Title VII expert &#8212; here&#8217;s an example of <a href="http://citizenchris.typepad.com/citizenchris/2007/10/poking-holes-in.html#comment-85438168" rel="nofollow">what I don&#8217;t know</a> about &#8220;how the American legal system works&#8221; &#8212;<br />
<blockquote>Being wronged, suing and being vindicated is NOT the same as never being wronged in the first place.</p>
<p>So to the extent that a clearer protection in a statute serves as a deterrent to wrongful behavior (i.e., keeps a single &#8220;Lambda&#8217;s skilled lawyer&#8221; from having to be involved at all in a lawsuit that would not happen under a different statute), Carpenter&#8217;s argument is invalid.</p></blockquote>
<p>Guess who wrote that, long before this post was published.</p>
<p>And remind me again how you know more about this issue than I do?</p>
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