Comments on: Blogger wars: Religion edition

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:51:13 +0000

Thanks juanito. I found Casey’s comments on the subject particularly enlightening. Wish I’d thought of some it myself, lol.

By: juanito

juanito — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:26:41 +0000

I finished reading the story as posted by Marcus and it sounds too much like…bad pulp fiction. I know people are angry and a few have done/committed violent things; but, the ones I’ve read have been against buildings, cars, fences, and so on. Not people. I just didn’t believe the story as written. But, Matt and Marcus, thanks for allowing us readers to be involved with GLBT events around this country. Appreciate it.

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 13:00:51 +0000

Free legal advice. Awesome. This is going to continue after you get your degree right?

By: Casey

Casey — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 04:33:17 +0000

Hehe, thanks Matt – and this future lawyer says that if you’re referring to somebody as a victim when you relate their story, you are indeed accepting and articulating their claims as reality. Saying it was the statement of somebody who claimed to be at the scene would be better. Just for future reference.

By: Marcus French

Marcus French — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:00:26 +0000

[insert lawyer joke here]

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:54:12 +0000

Casey’s going to make an excellent lawyer some day. Ain’t that right, Marcus?

By: Marcus French

Marcus French — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:40:37 +0000

Casey,

I think you make an excellent point when you say that it would have been better for JHOP to press charges if they were going to go public with the story, if only to have an impartial judgment on what actually happened. Ideally, I think, one would either press charges and make it public, or not press charges and keep it private.

I can also understand though, in the heat of the moment, not pressing charges for the sake of showing love and forgiveness, then later realizing that the story was important and needed to be made public.

By: Matt

Matt — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:38:07 +0000

Marcus… I doubt any minds will be changed. The accounts are so outrageous people will make their own conclusions.

However, I applaud your willingness to, in the future, make your sources clearer.

You and Dr. Brown and I know all too well about sources — sometimes they turn out to be wrong.

By: Marcus French

Marcus French — Thu, 20 Nov 2008 02:34:46 +0000

I ended up making a judgment call, based on the account of the team member, as well as prior knowledge of the ministry’s integrity, that the JHOP people had in fact been verbally, physically, and sexually assaulted, thus those things are stated as fact in the article (and JHOP’s official report confirms that they happened). With regard to a few of the specific and controversial acts that could have been misinterpreted or misidentified by the JHOP members, I was careful to say “according to one of the victims” or “according to some at the scene”, rather than stating them as fact. Thus I still stand by the story we wrote.

In retrospect however, I should have checked to make sure that the account on YouTube was the same exact one I had received, and I should have subsequently let people know in my article that the account I was going off of was from a JHOP member who was at the scene, and that people could look at the account for themselves at the Free Republic link. It was simply an oversight on my part, and I’ll do better in the future with regard to documenting my sources.

By: Casey

Casey — Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:11:07 +0000

After reading the JHOP official statement, I’m particularly struck by one thing. This statement is crafted, framed to echo the Genesis story of Sodom and Gomorrah. It’s classic dog-whistle politics – most secular individuals won’t pick up on it, but a certain segment of religious communities will read this story and, consciously or unconsciously, be reminded of the plight of Lot and his family whose guests were threatened with sexual assault by the sinful people of the city.

The ‘quotes’ cited in the statement, “we should grab their butts,” in particular, are so awkward and strange that they only make sense when you realize that the author is trying to fit a pre-existing narrative, one with particular power to his or her desired audience. This isn’t necessarily to say that the alleged victims are lying, but rather to highlight the lens through which they perceived their experience. JHOP walked into the Castro believing it to be Sodom incarnate, and when confronted, they perceived and described their experience accordingly.

Add to that the martyr complex so common among these groups (and made explicit at the end of their statement) where they actively WANT to suffer for their gospel, and we should be anything but surprised to hear such claims. One more reason why, until we have concrete evidence, all of these claims should be viewed with a significant degree of skepticism.