Where are the real Baptists?
by Matt | May 25th, 2006 |As a young kid growing up in a Baptist church, then later as a teen who left the Baptist church, went back to the Baptist church and now as a young adult converting to the Episcopal church, I know a thing or two about Baptist principles. They are so engrained into my mind that many times I cannot help but to still think of myself as Baptist. Many of my friends have heard me joke around about my Episcopal conversion by saying that, really, I’m a “Baptipalian.”
One of the principles of the Baptist faith is church autonomy. In fact, it is one of the biggest and most honored principles. Many Baptist churches, like the one I grew up in, are known as “Independent Baptists.” These churches aren’t members of any type of association, convention or group. They want to keep their autonomy. Later at the more accepting and inclusive Wake Forest Baptist Church, where I still hold membership, the same principle was taught. Baptists believe in the power of the congregation, the people. They do not believe in the power of the church heirarchy. That’s just the Baptist way.
This is the main reason why I am baffled by the recent decision on LGBT exclusion by the North Carolina Baptist Convention. According to an article in the Raleigh News & Observer (hat tip: Anglico at BlueNC.com), the NC Baptist State Convention decided this week to exclude from membership any church which welcomes gays or affiliates with groups that do.
Meeting in Asheboro, the Baptist State Convention’s board of directors adopted the policy which must still be approved by the full convention in the fall (by the way, they usually meet in Winston-Salem every year).
According to the article:
The convention’s board of directors, meeting this week in Asheboro, approved the new policy by a significant majority. It must still be ratified at the annual meeting of the convention in November.
The vote cements the conservative direction of the convention, the largest denominational body in North Carolina with about 4,000 affiliated churches. Although the convention adopted a financial policy in 1992 that refused money for churches showing “public approval, promotion or blessing of homosexuality,” the new policy would go further.
It would forbid churches from ordaining gay clergy, making public statements supporting homosexuality or accepting as members people who have refused to “repent of the sin of homosexual behavior.”
Asked whether he thought the policy would be approved by convention delegates, Don Warren, president of the board of directors, answered, “Absolutely.”
“We believe homosexuality is sin, as are many others,” said Warren, a retired textile executive from Gastonia. “But we are not aware of any other sin that has a national organization that promotes its happening beginning in kindergarten and first grade.”
I am still baffled. Where are the real Baptists at? They surely aren’t in the Baptist State Convention. Since when did Baptists let a church heirarchy tell individual churches what they can and cannot do? Since when did being Baptist mean following the orders of the leaders, when Baptist principle has long been that leaders follow the orders of the people?
But to be honest, the breaking of Baptist principle really isn’t the only thing that upsets me here. The Baptist State Convention is doing nothing but following right in line with the many religious groups and faiths, as well as their bigoted leaders, responsible for so much damage and heartache. So many people are affected by the exclusion and bigotry taught and promoted from the pulpit. Many people, being taught that they are no longer wanted or desired by their families, friends, churches, society and, ultimately, God, take their lives. With no hope and with no one there to help them, love them or accept them (as Christ surely would have done), many people see no other option. Why is life worth living, when everyone around you has said you have no life to live and God Himself doesn’t want you?
Baptist principles aren’t the only thing I learned growing up in that small, rural Baptist church. That is where I first learned about gay people, too. Before I even knew that “gay” and “homosexual” or the worse “fag” and “queer,” were the words which described how I felt about guys, I did at least know that these were people who were bad, evil, abominable sodomites who went straight to hell.
Some of the “jokes” my old minister liked to say (and probably still says) were something along these lines:
Take all the queers, put them on a ship… pluck a hole in the side and send it out to see.
Let’s take all the queers and give them their own two or three states. Move them all up there and lock them in. We can just take it back in a generation or so anyway… they’ll all die out.
Although it wasn’t until later (a couple of years before I left the church) that I realized my minister was talking about people like me, one thing was always clear in my mind: “Fags” and “queers” weren’t worthy of life and should die.
It is a wonder, I guess, that I’m still here. Maybe I got out of that situation early enough so as to not cause any type of continuing thoughts of suicide. I can’t sit here and deny that I never thought of it. Given what I had experienced, and now knowing that those who have taken their lives have had similar experiences of exclusion, hate and bigotry, I’m probably a lucky one. Maybe God wanted me to survive. Maybe getting out of that church and seeking true love and acceptance was what God wanted. Maybe my life is meant for something. Being only human, I can’t claim to know what God wants for my life though.
One thing I can claim to know is that my God is a God full of love and acceptance, inclusion and mercy. My God is not a God of hate and exclusion. My God doesn’t practice bigotry and has no prejudices, except for when it comes to his worship (see Exodus 20:4-5 if you’re confused).
The North Carolina Baptist State Convention really needs to do some thinking. Do they really want to be the ones to take credit for using God’s Holy Name to cause pain and injury to so many of His children. What do they think they are going to say at the Last Judgment? How will they answer God when He asks, “Why did you use my name to outcast and ostracize my beloved children? Why did you use my name to cause bigotry and hate? Did you learn nothing from the love that is my Son?”
For God’s sake and for His children’s sake, I hope and pray that the North Carolina State Baptist Convention chooses another path. It’s unlikely, I know, but I can still hope.
22 Responses to “Where are the real Baptists?”
Matt, where is the bigotry in this statement from the Baptists? (Not your recollection of what your pastor said, but the article you copied.) Surely you do not deny that homosexual sex is condemned as sin in the Bible.
Do you really know better? Christ, I believe, created you. It is Christ who commands us all to control our passions. You are lying about who Christ is and what He is about when you suggest there is nothing spiritually wrong with homosexual sex.
By chip atkinson on May 25, 2006
Chip: The Holy Name of God, the Bible and religiously-based arguments have all been used to discriminate or put down all sorts of groups of people all through history.
There is NOT ONE TIME that the Church has oppressed a person or a group of people without the Church later having to apologize. The Church’s (that is the whole thing, not just Rome) track record isn’t very good when it comes to oppression.
What makes this situation any different? Nothing.
Examples (Quotes from Faith in America; other examples off the top of my head):
Oh… and let me add: In EVERY ONE of those examples above, the Church, its leaders or its people were able to find at least one, if not more, Biblical interpretation to support their oppression. Sounds really (eerily) familiar to me.
By Matt on May 25, 2006
Hey, hey hey…
Let’s not lump Baptists in with Catholics.
The Catholic Church is a giant, well-structured organization whose success in the area of alienating homosexuals is the gold standard. Baptists - who are, relative to the Roman Catholic Church - just getting started alienating this and other groups - can’t really hold a candle to the Vatican.
Luckily, in practice, most Catholics have almost from the beginning had the good sense to decide for themselves precisely how much doctrine we were willing to swallow. Every Christian of any denomination has to do this - if for no other reason that because the Bible itself, in its every form, contradicts itself, leaves many things unresolved, sets out rules and precepts by which modern humans cannot possibly live (in organized society, anyway) and requires and broad and sweeping belief in the paranormal of which most Christians are not possessed.
The Catholic Church has handled this problem through establishing an organization and hierarchy that interprets and makes pronouncements about the Bible and how our religion relates to it now. As a Catholic you either accept these or you don’t. Like every other human you have to decide what’s real for you, what you believe and what you can live with.
Protestants…I have no idea what you people do. Except, in my experience, split off into sects, argue with one another about scripture, interpretation, modern Christian practice and (in some cases) declare that all of the paranormal events depicted in the Bible are, of course, literal (Ark, walking on water, splitting the sea, plagues on demand, immaculate conception, etc) but that the idea of Saints is ridiculous and the idea of transubstantiation is ridiculous and disgusting.
I think Chip has an iron-clad argument when he says the Bible is explicitly against homosexuality. But he could make the same argument for a lot of other dumb, barbaric and simply outdated ideas, precepts, ideas and practices as laid out by the good book. That thinking might have reflected the best thinking of its time but because protestants all have to decide for themselves (rather than be told) how much of it they have to take seriously I think you should get off of each others’ [explative deleted] about these things and try to get along.
By Joe Killian on May 25, 2006
Matt, I just finished Jimmy Carter’s “Our Engangered Values.” He talks about how the Baptists have been hijacked by people who have distorted the teachings of Jesus (among lots of other interesting issues of morality and public policy). I think you’d find it interesting.
By Roch101 on May 25, 2006
I lumped Baptists and Catholics and all Christian sects into one. The Church (the whole thing… all over the world) has caused so much damage in oppressing people all over the world.
To your last paragraph. People have used the Bible as evidence to oppress all types of people. Just look at the examples above, specifically the quotes. Religion, the name of God and the Bible have all been used through out history as a means to justify oppression and discrimination.
Forty, Fifty, maybe 100 years from now we will all look back and think, “My God… forgive us… What were we thinking?” The same way we look back today on the religious and biblical rhetoric used to oppress so many other groups.
And your point about how Catholics work vs. Protestants: That is why I am so baffled by the Convention Board of Directors decision. Baptist principle has long upheld church autonomy. This new decision takes that autonomy away and subjects all of the congregations (where the power is supposed to lie) to the wishes of the Convention’s leaders.
By Matt on May 25, 2006
To Roch: I love Jimmy Carter. He’s a good ole’ Southern Boy, minus the bigotry and hate. He’s inclusive, accepting and promotes social justice. I’ll check out the book and thanks for the heads up.
And Carter is right. The Baptist faith, over the last quarter century has seen a horrible shift in leadership and policy. The traditional State Conventions and the Southern Baptist Convention has been taken over by fundamentalists and those who push exclusion at the expense of God’s overwhelming love and mercy. The moderates, God bless them, have stuck in there in some small part. I guess they are hoping they can take the reigns again sometime soon andpush back the tide of the fundamentalists’ right-wing, radical and harmful policies. I don’t know if they’ll ever be able to do that, but I guess they can try.
By Matt on May 25, 2006
Matt:
I have to admit I know very little about Baptism (Baptistism?)…but this does make me wonder…what makes the Convention important and powerful? Aren’t protestants protestants to avoid just this sort of thing…?
By Joe Killian on May 25, 2006
The Convention is supposed to be a grouping of churches so that good can be done in the community. It is more like an association. It isn’t supposed to put forward binding statements of faith or creeds or policies. This is where church autonomy comes in to play. If you walk into almost any Baptist congregation you will see who has the power: Not the minister or staff members or other people in the “heirarchy,” but rather the congregation and individuals.
What the Convention is supposed to do is allow individual churches to network with each other and accomplish good in the world through their combined efforts.
By putting forth this policy on gays, the Convention has basically put up a creed: “Believe this or be gone” is what they have said. “Follow us this way or don’t follow us at all.”
By Matt on May 25, 2006
As someone who has been deeply involved in the Baptist Church and Baptist Controversies my whole entire life (my pops is a Baptist Historian at Baylor)…let me make a few comments..
First, how does one go from being Baptist to Episcopalian? If you’re a firm believer in autonomy - why the switch to such a hierarichal denomination? Are there not any Moderate/Progressive Baptist Churches in your area? Such as Churches affiliated with the CBF or Alliance of Baptist? At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter - as long as you’re in Church worshipping with fellow believers…I’m just too much of a denominationalist. The Baptist Heritage runs too deep in my blood..
I’m more of a Wake Forest kind of Baptist. One of my mentors, James Dunn, is a professor at Wake Forest Divinty School and the Dean of Wake Divinity was my Dads Mentor/Dissertation Supervisor back at Southern Seminary (SBC) before the Fundamentalists took over the Convention. Wake Forest Baptist is affiliated with both the CBF and Alliance of Baptists. Good Church with a RICH and PROGRESSIVE history. Too bad you aren’t still in Wake or you could remain a member..
But you must stopped being baffled by the leadership of Baptist State Conventions. Of all the Baptist State Conventions - only those in Texas (suprise huh?) and Virginia are controlled by Moderates/Progressives. The rest are controlled by Fundamentalists and their money is funneled to the SBC.
In a nutshell, Fundamentalists began the takeover in 1979 of the Southern Baptist Convention. By 1990, the Fundamentalist Takeover was over. The Moderates/Progressives left the SBC and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and Alliance of Baptists were formed. The Alliance is more liberal because it is, as you know, fully inclusive of LGBT. The CBF views itself as a Ministry/Missions organization (not a denomination) so it has not taken official statements on homosexuality. However, the CBF is diverse (though not conservative). Churches that affiliate with the CBF range from moderate to liberal. Some affirm. Some don’t. And many simply have not been forced to take a position on the issue.
People must stop associating “Baptists” with the Fundamentalist SBC kind.
For those unfamiliar with Baptist life - I refer to myself as a Jimmy Carter kinda Baptist.
I still think homosexuality is a very complicated theological issue. I flip-flop on the issue theologically all the time. I know the arguments. I’ve studied the passages in the original Greek. One of the most cherished Baptist principles is Dissent. Baptists must have the right to dissent on the subject of homosexuality. However, we must dissent in a manner that reflects the spirit of Jesus. Many are not capable of doing so…
We must welcome and love all - while being able to agree to disagree on whether to affirm…
The Wake-Forest kinda Baptists have left the NC Convention.
Visit the CBF or Alliance of Baptists homepages or for Jimmy Carter kinda Baptist news…
Read http://www.ethicsdaily.com or http://www.abpnews.com or mainstreambaptist.blogspot.com
By Big Daddy Weave on May 26, 2006
John15:12 “This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.”,
17:”This I command you: love one another.”
Read the whole chapter
By Jim Caserta on May 26, 2006
Thanks for the links and the comments Big Daddy.
IT is kind of hard to explain why I am drawn (and have been drawn for sometime) to the Episcopal Church. But don’t discount my Baptist heritage either. I’m still a member of Wake Forest Baptist; being a student at Wake has no bearing on whether or not one can be a member. In fact, I plan to hold joint membership (or whatever is possible between the two churches) once I am confirmed in the Episcopal church. Wake Forest Baptist is my church family, a good family, but there is just something that draws me toward the Episcopal church and, like I said, it’s hard to put into words.
My friends and I have often discussed how, in comparison to other gay people our age, I’ve tended to become closer to religion and closer to the church than most other gay people we know who have struggled with their sexuality in relation to their faith. It is definitely a phenomenon I can’t explain.
I do know that my life has been the exception rather than the rule when it comes to loyalty to my faith and strong belief in God, compared to the LGBT folk I know, mainly all of whom are my age or thereabouts. Many of the LGBT people I know have either left the church entirely or on the edge of losing faith. They feel shunned by the church and the messages they have heard all their lives are similar to the ones I heard at that small, rural Baptist church I grew up in.
I’ve even tended to get myself into a little bit of “political” trouble on campus. UNCG is very liberal and our LGBT group is as diverse a group of religious faiths as I have almost ever seen. Self-identified Christians, surprisingly, are in the minority and I have had to deal with a great bit of bias toward the church. Sometimes that bias has even turned against me because I’m not afraid to openly state that I am a Christian, although I have never “preached” or tried to “save” anyone. Sharing my life and my faith is all that is needed, I don’t need to “save” anyone. A person’s salvation is not between me and that person and God, but only that person and God.
In my post here I still have to wonder… Where are the Baptists that still believe in church autonomy and, as you point out, dissent? How can the Baptist State Convention continue to claim to be Baptist when they are no longer upholding some of their most historic, valued and cherished denominational principles?
By Matt on May 26, 2006
And Jim - Thanks for the Bible passages. I think the Gospels are clear in their message of love, grace, mercy and acceptance. For many, Christ represents those things. Sadly, to many in the religious, fundamentalist right, God and Christ continue to be symbols used to propagate hate and bigotry. How sad it is that God’s Name has been used, so many times through history, to perpetrate the evils of humanity.
By Matt on May 26, 2006
Matt, the Baptist poistion you alluded to is not prejudiced. Even the spokesperson said gay sex is not to be viewed differently from other sins. This is not just a church doctrine. God determines many things as sinful that are not neccessarily viewed by cultures as immoral or wrong.
Your pastor, for instance, certainly owes you an apology for making jokes and mistreating people as if anyone deserved to be treated that way. The Bible is crystal clear on that one: all of us- we are all sinners and fall short- no one is worthy of forgiveness or redemption or salvation. So who among us can place themselves above another.
Here is where you are wrong: you believe you have the God given right to have sex with men because you are only sexually attracted to men. You are telling people that it is okay for you (and presumably anyone)to do things contrary to what God says is right, if it is something that they are naturally inclined to do. Yet Christ clearly condemns sex outside of marraige and even urges us to remain celibate.
You don’t want God to accept you as you are. That’s not enough for you. You want to accept God on your terms.
By chip atkinson on May 26, 2006
Chip,
You must remember while the Bible is Infallible our interpretations are not. Our Interpretations are FALLIBLE.
On this issue, I straddle the fence. I’m a flip flopper. But even on the days when I disagree with Matt - I can understand and appreciate his right to interpret the Bible ON HIS OWN (i.e. Priesthood of the Believer/Soul Freedom - Another BAPTIST DISTINCTIVE!).
Matt and I may disagree on theological issues - but I will never be arrogant enough to declare his interpretation WRONG. Why? Because our interpretations are fallible…
For the record, I don’t use the word infallible or authoritative often because its negative historical meaning….
Matt - you should look up Brian McLaren. He’s an unofficial leaders of this Emergent Movement of young people which basically advocates no absolutes. Its a young people thing mostly. I think Emergent Christians will for the most part welcome and be inclusive of LGBT in all areas of Christian life…
By Big Daddy Weave on May 26, 2006
Granted my take is certainly fallible. However, there is no legitimate debate over what the Bible says about sexual sin. All sex outside of marraige is sinful. Homosexual sex is sinful.
Matt is correct in saying that Churches have mistreated people who sin. Matt believes that because he is attracted to men sexually, God wants him to fullfill his desire- just like a married couple. However, he is wrong to say Christ wants him to have a happy, gay sex life under any circumstance.
By chip atkinson on May 26, 2006
Under any circumstance Chip? Um… no. Only in a long-term, life-long, committed relationship (would be called marriage if I could get such a thing).
It might be better to stick with opinion Chip, instead of using such broad statements such as “Matt believes…” You should be saying something like “I think Matt believes…” or “It sounds to me as though Matt believes…”
By Matt on May 26, 2006
Chip,
You are showing your hypocrisy. How can you admit that your “take” is fallible but then declare that there is no legitimate debate over Biblical interpretations concerning homosexuality?
There is most certainly a debate! A HUGE Debate at that! If there wasn’t a debate - you wouldn’t be on this blog voicing your opinion!
A better question to you Chip - if Matt lived in Massachusetts and married a man - would his relationship with that man be sinful since as you implied, sex inside of marriage is not sinful??
Whats your real beef with gays and lesbians living in a committed life-long relationship? Leviticus? Romans? I’m sure you also have a beef with women who are not “silent” in the Church or who exert “spiritual authority” over men, correct?
I’m glad you admit your interpretation is fallible - but do you really believe your own words?
By Big Daddy Weave on May 26, 2006
Matt, I was dead on accurate about what you’ve written and claim to believe. And yes, Gay sex is condemned in the Bible under any circumstance.
Big Daddy- I have no problems with gays living together- longterm or otherwise. Why bring up women in the church? The Bible is absolutely clear on sexual behavior. The debate you refer to is one sided. Gay apologists are scrambling to come up with any way to make homosexuality acceptible to the Church. My point is that the Bible is clear- its sinful.
Matt asks where are the true Baptists. The ones he calls untrue are people who believe gay sex is sinful. Who are you judging Matt?
By chip atkinson on May 27, 2006
Well Chip… I guess you are psychic, too, seeing as though you can claim to know what I believe (which would require being able to poke into my mind and my thoughts).
I didn’t judge anybody… I was asking where are the Baptists who still believe in the historic and cherished principles of the Baptist faith. It was a question.
These comments aren’t going to go anywhere though… bashing back and forth is useless and futile.
By Matt on May 27, 2006
Fine- I didn’t see where I bashed anyone. But you have bashed alot of people and are being as condescending as anyone. To wit:
“The Baptist State Convention is doing nothing but following right in line with the many religious groups and faiths, as well as their bigoted leaders, responsible for so much damage and heartache. So many people are affected by the exclusion and bigotry taught and promoted from the pulpit. Many people, being taught that they are no longer wanted or desired by their families, friends, churches, society and, ultimately, God, take their lives. With no hope and with no one there to help them, love them or accept them (as Christ surely would have done), many people see no other option. Why is life worth living, when everyone around you has said you have no life to live and God Himself doesn’t want you?”
I based my statements on what you wrote and I stuck to the subject. Did I misrepresent your argument?
You asked where are the real Baptists? There is an obvious implication in that question. “Where are the real Baptists at? They surely aren’t in the Baptist State Convention. Since when did Baptists let a church heirarchy tell individual churches what they can and cannot do? Since when did being Baptist mean following the orders of the leaders, when Baptist principle has long been that leaders follow the orders of the people?”
Am I a bigot for saying homosexuality is sinful?
By chip atkinson on May 27, 2006
Yes you misrepresented my views, no matter how many times I tried to explain it: Here’s an example of where you misrepresented them: “Matt believes that because he is attracted to men sexually, God wants him to fullfill his desire- just like a married couple. However, he is wrong to say Christ wants him to have a happy, gay sex life under any circumstance.”
But I’m done and this post is done. The back and forth is useless and futile. We haven’t gotten anywhere with it and you know that.
By Matt on May 27, 2006